Intervju: Frederike Geerdink, novinarka
Biti žena i novinar u Turskoj
U poređenju sa Turskom, Holandija je dosadna. I mala je. U Holandiji je populacija starija i sve je na svome, razvijena je na neki način. U Turskoj je populacija mlada, privreda se razvija, proces demokratizacije traje, toliko toga se dešava što je veoma važno. Osećala sam da moram otići tamo gde su prave teme
Piše MILENA STOŠIĆ
Frederike Geerdink je Holanđanka koja živi i radi kao novinar u Turskoj već nekoliko godina. Poreklom je iz Utrehta, grada koji se nalazi na 30 kilometara od Amsterdama, i odrasla je u istočnoj Holandiji, bliže granici sa Nemačkom. Čak i pre nego što se odlučila za novinarstvo, govorila je da će biti dopisnik iz Rusije. Danas je svoje mesto našla u Istanbulu i ne pomišlja da se ponovo seli ili vrati u Holandiju.
U Istanbulu, usred centra glavnog dela grada - Taksima, ona govori za WAVE magazine o svojoj odluci da se preseli na istok, o novinarstvu, položaju žena u Turskoj i svom životu kao žene sa zapada u zemlji koja se često doživljava kao konzervativna i kontroverzna.
- Želela sam da budem freelancer u inostranstvu, ali nisam znala kako. Pohađala sam jedan večernji kurs u Holandiji za ljude koji su se već bavili novinarstvom, i tamo smo napravili listu stvari neophodnih za jednu zemlju da bi novinar u njoj bio potencijalno uspešan kao freelancer. Jedan od kriterijuma bio je i da životni standard bude niži nego u Holandiji, tako da vam nije potrebno mnogo novca za život. Ja sam veoma volela Škotsku, ali ona je odmah otpala jer je nivo cena isti kao u Holandiji - objašnjava Frederike svoju odluku da se preseli u Tursku.
- Takođe, potrebno je da u zemlji postoji neki konflikt o kome može da se piše, a u Holandiji postoji velika turska zajednica, mnogi Holanđani idu u Tursku na odmor, postojalo je sa raznih strana potencijalno veliko interesovanje za Tursku. Nakon osam godina freelancinga i osam godina kancelarijskog posla poznavala sam ljude iz praktično svakog magazina u Holandiji, pa sam razmišljala da, kad je već iz toliko različitih uglova moguće pisati o Turskoj, onda mogu to da radim za sve te magazine, u kojima već pišem o zdravlju.
Kako je to biti žena sa Zapada u Istanbulu?
- Sjajno! Da, zaista, u poređenju sa Turskom Holandija je dosadna. I mala je. Osećala sam da moram otići tamo gde su prave teme. U Holandiji nema diskriminacije, nema kršenja ljudskih prava, a Turska se u tom smislu tek razvija. U Holandiji je populacija starija i sve je na svome, razvijena je na neki način. U Turskoj je populacija mlada, privreda se razvija, proces demokratizacije traje, postoji pitanje Kurda i Jermenije, toliko toga se dešava što je veoma važno.
Da li su Vam se ispunila očekivanja?
- Pre šest godina, kada sam postala entuzijastična u vezi sa Turskom, odlučila sam da odem i bacim pogled, da vidim da li ću moći da napravim priču i da je prodam, i - uspela sam. Dva meseca kasnije otišla sam opet i ponovila sve to. Tako sam svakih nekoliko meseci odlazila na 2-3 nedelje kao freelancer (u periodu od dve godine) i svaki put sam uspevala da napravim priču i prodam je. To mi je dalo samopouzdanje da se i preselim tamo.
Ženske teme su jedna od glavnih oblasti Vašeg interesovanja?
- Dobro je da ste ih nazvali "teme", jer ljudi ih obično nazivaju ženska "prava", a to je samo jedan njihov deo. Da, pišem o ženama. Recimo, marame i pokrivanje glave - to je vrlo diskriminatorski. Ali pišem i o sreći u životima žena. One mi govore šta ih čini srećnim, šta su očekivale od života. Negde sam pročitala da samo 50 odsto populacije žena u Turskoj smatraju sebe srećnima, što je mali procenat.
Dakle, smatrate da je pokrivanje glave diskriminišuće?
- Razgovarala sam sa nekim ženama koje nose marame i kažu da su se navikle. Međutim, ponekad one ne mogu da saopšte svojim očevima i muževima da ne žele to. Ima veoma mladih žena i to mi jako ide na moje zapadnjalke nerve - mislim, smeš da se pokažeš, smeš da pokažeš ko si. Ali, poznajem jednu Holanđanku koja je to sama izabrala, ona kaže - ja znam da su se ovako oblačile Muhamedove žene, a one su moji uzori i ja hoću da izgledam tako.
Neistina je pak da je pokrivanje uvek nametnuto od strane muža ili oca. Poznajem jednu studentkinju ovde koja je pokrivena, a upoznala sam i njene dve sestre koje i dalje žive u roditeljskoj kući i ne nose marame. Međutim, na univerzitetima je pokrivanje zabranjeno i ako žele da ostanu dosledne religiji mlade žene mogu da nose perike ili velike šešire. Ne smeju se pokazivati simboli političkog islama u državnim institucijama.
Ima li puno nepismenih žena u Turskoj?
- Nema mnogo posla u južnim i istočnim delovima zemlje. Kurdi takođe imaju velike porodice i nemaju dovoljno novca da pošalju svu decu u školu, tako da prvenstvo imaju dečaci jer oni kasnije treba da budu sposobni da izdržavaju porodicu. Ponekad Turci ne žele da njihove žene budu obrazovane, iako ovde postoji zakon da sve devojčice moraju da idu u školu. One koje ostaju kod kuće nazivaju se "domaćicama". One ne rade; pomažu majkama u brizi o kući i mlađoj braći i sestrama - vode ih u školu, obavljaju kupovinu, čiste, peru. U međuvremenu one rade ručne radove spremajući se za brak. Velika je grupa takvih ovde.
Šta je sa nasiljem u porodici?
- To je ovde veći problem nego u Holandiji. I više je prihvaćeno od strane žena kao nešto normalno. Ima žena koje smatraju da muškarci nekad imaju razloga da biju svoje žene, ako na primer, žena ode kod prijatelja bez dozvole.
Radila sam priču sa ženom čiji je muž umro posle pet godina braka. On se opio na smrt, a ona je izgubila čak dve trudnoće zbog njegove nasilnosti. Tokom intervjua je rekla - ali, ja sam ga volela - i ja sam se pitala zašto, s obzirom na to da ga nikada nije znala kao finog čoveka. Njen odgovor je bio - moje mesto je bilo uz njega. Dakle, nije bila u pitanju zaista ljubav nego nešto poput "on je moj muž i uvek će biti, i šta se tu može", kao nerazdvojna krvna veza.
Žrtve se ne suprotstavljaju često. A policija obično pita - da li sigurno, sigurno želite da podnesete prijavu. I mnoge od žena koje napuste svoje nasilne muževe vraćaju se posle nekog vremena. Zaista je teško izaći iz nasilne veze.
Sa kim obično ostaju deca?
- Deca obično ostaju sa majkom koja se može vratiti svojim roditeljima. Teško je nešto generalizovano reći u ovom kontekstu o Turskoj. Na jugoistoku zemlje devojčice od 14 godina su primorane da se udaju za nekog od 50, i ako žele da izađu iz braka jedino rešenje je da počine samoubistvo. Ali postoje i mesta poput Istanbula, gde se žene udaju tri puta i razvode četiri puta. Postoje velike razlike.
(Objavljeno: 15.07.2010. u Wave magazinu)
____________________________________________________________________
Interview: Frederike Geerdink, journalist
Being a woman and a journalist in Turkey
Comparing to Turkey Holland is boring. And it is small. Holland is more like old population, everything is settled, it is sort of developed. In Turkey, population is young, economy is growing, democratisation process going on, there are so much issues going on, which is very important. I felt I have to go where real topics are
By MILENA STOŠIĆ
Frederike Geerdink is a Dutch who lives and work as a journalist in Turkey for several years now. She origins from Utreht, a place 30 km from Amsterdam, and she grew up in Eastern Holland, close to German border. Even before she went to journalism school, she used to say that she will be correspondent from Russia. Today, she is settled in Istanbul without thinking to move again or get back to West.
In Istanbul, right in the center of main city district - Taksim square, she speaks for WAVE magazine about her decision to move to East, about journalism, women position in Turkey and her life as a woman from the west in a country which is often perceived as conservative and controversial.
- First, I wanted to be a freelancer abroad, but I didn't know how to do it. There was an evening course for people who already work in journalism in Holland, and there we made a list of criterias that one country needs for journalist to be potentially successful as freelancer. And one of the things is also that living standard should be lower than in Holland, so you don't need lot of money for living. And I loved Scotland very much but that was immediately out of the picture because it has same price level as Holland - explains Frederike her decision to move to Turkey.
- Also because country needs a conflict you can write about. And there is a huge Turkish community in Holland, there are many Dutch people going to Turkey for holidays, there was a big potential interest in Turkey in many different groups. After 8 years of freelancing and 8 years of having an office job I knew people from practically every magazine in Holland, so I thought if there are so many angles you can write about Turkey from, then I can write for all these magazines too, where I already write about health.
How does it feel being a woman from West in Istanbul?
- Great! Yes, really, comparing to Turkey Holland is boring. And it is small. I felt I have to go where real topics are. In Holland there is no discrimination, no human rights violation and Turkey is in that perspective much more developing. Holland is more like old population, everything is settled, it is sort of developed. In Turkey, population is young, economy is growing, democratisation process going on, Kurdish, Armenian issue, there are so much issues going on, which is very important.
Are your expectations fullfilled?
- Six years ago, when I became enthusiastic about Turkey, I decided to go and take a look for the first time and to see if I can make a story and sell it, and - I did. And then two months later, I went again and repeated the same. And I was going every couple months for 2-3 weeks as freelancer (for two years) and every time I was able to make a story and sell it. That brought me confidence to move there.
Women issues are one of your main fields of interest?
- It's good that you call it "women issues" because usually people say "women rights", but that's only a part. Exp. Head scarfs - it's really discriminating. But I also write about happiness in women's life. They tell me what makes them happy in life, and what they expected from life. I read somewhere that only 50 per cent of Turkish female population call themselves happy, which is a low percentage.
So, you think that head-scarfing is discriminating?
- I've talked to some women that wear head-scarves and they say that they got used to it. Sometimes they can't say to their fathers and husbands. There are ones who are very, very young and it get on my western nerves a little bit - I mean, you can show yourself, you can show who you are. But I know one Dutch women who really chose to be like that, she said - I know this is how Mohamed's wives were dressing and they are example for me so I want to look like they were.
It's not true that it is always imposed by husband or a father, because I also know a student here with a headscarf and I met two other sisters and they still live in their parents house and they are not head scarfed. But, on universities covering up is forbidden and if women want to stick with religion they can wear wigs or big hats. You can not show symbol of political Islam in official state's institutions.
Are there lots of women who can't read?
- There are not many jobs in South & East areas. Kurds also have big families and there is not enough money to send all the children to school, so first boys are sent to school because later they should be able to take care of families. Sometimes they don't want their woman to be educated although there is a law here that all girls have to go to school. Those who stay home are called "house girls". They stay at home and they don't work; they help their mothers in taking care of house and younger brothers and sisters - taking them to school, shopping, cleaning, cooking. In the meantime they do hands work and get ready for the marriage. It's quite a big group here.
What about domestic violence?
- It's a bigger issue here than in Holland. And it's more accepted by the women like it's natural. There are women who thinks that man has sometimes reasons to beat their wives if, e.g. they go to friends without permission.
I've done an article with a woman whose husband died five years after they married. He drink himself to death, she even lost two pregnancies because of his violence and she said during the interview - but, I loved him - and I wonder why since she never knew him as a nice man. Her answer was - I belonged with him, my place was with him. So, it wasn't really love but something like "he is my husband and he will always be, and what can I do".
Victims don't confront a lot. And police usually ask - do you really, really want to file a complaint. And many of them who leave their violent husbands go back after some time. It's really hard to get out of a violent relationship.
And with whom children usually stay?
- Children usually stay with mother. Woman can go back to her parents. It's hard to say something in general about Turkey in this context. Southeast of Turkey - girls of 14 are forced to marry 50 years old man, and if they want to get away from the marriage only solution is to commit suicide. But you also have places like Istanbul, where women marries three times and divorce four times. There are very huge differences.
(Published: 12.07.2010. in Wave magazine)
Biti žena i novinar u Turskoj
U poređenju sa Turskom, Holandija je dosadna. I mala je. U Holandiji je populacija starija i sve je na svome, razvijena je na neki način. U Turskoj je populacija mlada, privreda se razvija, proces demokratizacije traje, toliko toga se dešava što je veoma važno. Osećala sam da moram otići tamo gde su prave teme
Piše MILENA STOŠIĆ
Frederike Geerdink je Holanđanka koja živi i radi kao novinar u Turskoj već nekoliko godina. Poreklom je iz Utrehta, grada koji se nalazi na 30 kilometara od Amsterdama, i odrasla je u istočnoj Holandiji, bliže granici sa Nemačkom. Čak i pre nego što se odlučila za novinarstvo, govorila je da će biti dopisnik iz Rusije. Danas je svoje mesto našla u Istanbulu i ne pomišlja da se ponovo seli ili vrati u Holandiju.U Istanbulu, usred centra glavnog dela grada - Taksima, ona govori za WAVE magazine o svojoj odluci da se preseli na istok, o novinarstvu, položaju žena u Turskoj i svom životu kao žene sa zapada u zemlji koja se često doživljava kao konzervativna i kontroverzna.
- Želela sam da budem freelancer u inostranstvu, ali nisam znala kako. Pohađala sam jedan večernji kurs u Holandiji za ljude koji su se već bavili novinarstvom, i tamo smo napravili listu stvari neophodnih za jednu zemlju da bi novinar u njoj bio potencijalno uspešan kao freelancer. Jedan od kriterijuma bio je i da životni standard bude niži nego u Holandiji, tako da vam nije potrebno mnogo novca za život. Ja sam veoma volela Škotsku, ali ona je odmah otpala jer je nivo cena isti kao u Holandiji - objašnjava Frederike svoju odluku da se preseli u Tursku.
- Takođe, potrebno je da u zemlji postoji neki konflikt o kome može da se piše, a u Holandiji postoji velika turska zajednica, mnogi Holanđani idu u Tursku na odmor, postojalo je sa raznih strana potencijalno veliko interesovanje za Tursku. Nakon osam godina freelancinga i osam godina kancelarijskog posla poznavala sam ljude iz praktično svakog magazina u Holandiji, pa sam razmišljala da, kad je već iz toliko različitih uglova moguće pisati o Turskoj, onda mogu to da radim za sve te magazine, u kojima već pišem o zdravlju.
Kako je to biti žena sa Zapada u Istanbulu?
- Sjajno! Da, zaista, u poređenju sa Turskom Holandija je dosadna. I mala je. Osećala sam da moram otići tamo gde su prave teme. U Holandiji nema diskriminacije, nema kršenja ljudskih prava, a Turska se u tom smislu tek razvija. U Holandiji je populacija starija i sve je na svome, razvijena je na neki način. U Turskoj je populacija mlada, privreda se razvija, proces demokratizacije traje, postoji pitanje Kurda i Jermenije, toliko toga se dešava što je veoma važno.
Da li su Vam se ispunila očekivanja?
- Pre šest godina, kada sam postala entuzijastična u vezi sa Turskom, odlučila sam da odem i bacim pogled, da vidim da li ću moći da napravim priču i da je prodam, i - uspela sam. Dva meseca kasnije otišla sam opet i ponovila sve to. Tako sam svakih nekoliko meseci odlazila na 2-3 nedelje kao freelancer (u periodu od dve godine) i svaki put sam uspevala da napravim priču i prodam je. To mi je dalo samopouzdanje da se i preselim tamo.
Ženske teme su jedna od glavnih oblasti Vašeg interesovanja?
- Dobro je da ste ih nazvali "teme", jer ljudi ih obično nazivaju ženska "prava", a to je samo jedan njihov deo. Da, pišem o ženama. Recimo, marame i pokrivanje glave - to je vrlo diskriminatorski. Ali pišem i o sreći u životima žena. One mi govore šta ih čini srećnim, šta su očekivale od života. Negde sam pročitala da samo 50 odsto populacije žena u Turskoj smatraju sebe srećnima, što je mali procenat.Dakle, smatrate da je pokrivanje glave diskriminišuće?
- Razgovarala sam sa nekim ženama koje nose marame i kažu da su se navikle. Međutim, ponekad one ne mogu da saopšte svojim očevima i muževima da ne žele to. Ima veoma mladih žena i to mi jako ide na moje zapadnjalke nerve - mislim, smeš da se pokažeš, smeš da pokažeš ko si. Ali, poznajem jednu Holanđanku koja je to sama izabrala, ona kaže - ja znam da su se ovako oblačile Muhamedove žene, a one su moji uzori i ja hoću da izgledam tako.
Neistina je pak da je pokrivanje uvek nametnuto od strane muža ili oca. Poznajem jednu studentkinju ovde koja je pokrivena, a upoznala sam i njene dve sestre koje i dalje žive u roditeljskoj kući i ne nose marame. Međutim, na univerzitetima je pokrivanje zabranjeno i ako žele da ostanu dosledne religiji mlade žene mogu da nose perike ili velike šešire. Ne smeju se pokazivati simboli političkog islama u državnim institucijama.
Ima li puno nepismenih žena u Turskoj?
- Nema mnogo posla u južnim i istočnim delovima zemlje. Kurdi takođe imaju velike porodice i nemaju dovoljno novca da pošalju svu decu u školu, tako da prvenstvo imaju dečaci jer oni kasnije treba da budu sposobni da izdržavaju porodicu. Ponekad Turci ne žele da njihove žene budu obrazovane, iako ovde postoji zakon da sve devojčice moraju da idu u školu. One koje ostaju kod kuće nazivaju se "domaćicama". One ne rade; pomažu majkama u brizi o kući i mlađoj braći i sestrama - vode ih u školu, obavljaju kupovinu, čiste, peru. U međuvremenu one rade ručne radove spremajući se za brak. Velika je grupa takvih ovde.
Šta je sa nasiljem u porodici?
- To je ovde veći problem nego u Holandiji. I više je prihvaćeno od strane žena kao nešto normalno. Ima žena koje smatraju da muškarci nekad imaju razloga da biju svoje žene, ako na primer, žena ode kod prijatelja bez dozvole.
Radila sam priču sa ženom čiji je muž umro posle pet godina braka. On se opio na smrt, a ona je izgubila čak dve trudnoće zbog njegove nasilnosti. Tokom intervjua je rekla - ali, ja sam ga volela - i ja sam se pitala zašto, s obzirom na to da ga nikada nije znala kao finog čoveka. Njen odgovor je bio - moje mesto je bilo uz njega. Dakle, nije bila u pitanju zaista ljubav nego nešto poput "on je moj muž i uvek će biti, i šta se tu može", kao nerazdvojna krvna veza.
Žrtve se ne suprotstavljaju često. A policija obično pita - da li sigurno, sigurno želite da podnesete prijavu. I mnoge od žena koje napuste svoje nasilne muževe vraćaju se posle nekog vremena. Zaista je teško izaći iz nasilne veze.
Sa kim obično ostaju deca?
- Deca obično ostaju sa majkom koja se može vratiti svojim roditeljima. Teško je nešto generalizovano reći u ovom kontekstu o Turskoj. Na jugoistoku zemlje devojčice od 14 godina su primorane da se udaju za nekog od 50, i ako žele da izađu iz braka jedino rešenje je da počine samoubistvo. Ali postoje i mesta poput Istanbula, gde se žene udaju tri puta i razvode četiri puta. Postoje velike razlike.
(Objavljeno: 15.07.2010. u Wave magazinu)
____________________________________________________________________
Interview: Frederike Geerdink, journalist
Being a woman and a journalist in Turkey
Comparing to Turkey Holland is boring. And it is small. Holland is more like old population, everything is settled, it is sort of developed. In Turkey, population is young, economy is growing, democratisation process going on, there are so much issues going on, which is very important. I felt I have to go where real topics are
By MILENA STOŠIĆ
Frederike Geerdink is a Dutch who lives and work as a journalist in Turkey for several years now. She origins from Utreht, a place 30 km from Amsterdam, and she grew up in Eastern Holland, close to German border. Even before she went to journalism school, she used to say that she will be correspondent from Russia. Today, she is settled in Istanbul without thinking to move again or get back to West.In Istanbul, right in the center of main city district - Taksim square, she speaks for WAVE magazine about her decision to move to East, about journalism, women position in Turkey and her life as a woman from the west in a country which is often perceived as conservative and controversial.
- First, I wanted to be a freelancer abroad, but I didn't know how to do it. There was an evening course for people who already work in journalism in Holland, and there we made a list of criterias that one country needs for journalist to be potentially successful as freelancer. And one of the things is also that living standard should be lower than in Holland, so you don't need lot of money for living. And I loved Scotland very much but that was immediately out of the picture because it has same price level as Holland - explains Frederike her decision to move to Turkey.
- Also because country needs a conflict you can write about. And there is a huge Turkish community in Holland, there are many Dutch people going to Turkey for holidays, there was a big potential interest in Turkey in many different groups. After 8 years of freelancing and 8 years of having an office job I knew people from practically every magazine in Holland, so I thought if there are so many angles you can write about Turkey from, then I can write for all these magazines too, where I already write about health.
How does it feel being a woman from West in Istanbul?
- Great! Yes, really, comparing to Turkey Holland is boring. And it is small. I felt I have to go where real topics are. In Holland there is no discrimination, no human rights violation and Turkey is in that perspective much more developing. Holland is more like old population, everything is settled, it is sort of developed. In Turkey, population is young, economy is growing, democratisation process going on, Kurdish, Armenian issue, there are so much issues going on, which is very important.
Are your expectations fullfilled?
- Six years ago, when I became enthusiastic about Turkey, I decided to go and take a look for the first time and to see if I can make a story and sell it, and - I did. And then two months later, I went again and repeated the same. And I was going every couple months for 2-3 weeks as freelancer (for two years) and every time I was able to make a story and sell it. That brought me confidence to move there.
Women issues are one of your main fields of interest?
- It's good that you call it "women issues" because usually people say "women rights", but that's only a part. Exp. Head scarfs - it's really discriminating. But I also write about happiness in women's life. They tell me what makes them happy in life, and what they expected from life. I read somewhere that only 50 per cent of Turkish female population call themselves happy, which is a low percentage.So, you think that head-scarfing is discriminating?
- I've talked to some women that wear head-scarves and they say that they got used to it. Sometimes they can't say to their fathers and husbands. There are ones who are very, very young and it get on my western nerves a little bit - I mean, you can show yourself, you can show who you are. But I know one Dutch women who really chose to be like that, she said - I know this is how Mohamed's wives were dressing and they are example for me so I want to look like they were.
It's not true that it is always imposed by husband or a father, because I also know a student here with a headscarf and I met two other sisters and they still live in their parents house and they are not head scarfed. But, on universities covering up is forbidden and if women want to stick with religion they can wear wigs or big hats. You can not show symbol of political Islam in official state's institutions.
Are there lots of women who can't read?
- There are not many jobs in South & East areas. Kurds also have big families and there is not enough money to send all the children to school, so first boys are sent to school because later they should be able to take care of families. Sometimes they don't want their woman to be educated although there is a law here that all girls have to go to school. Those who stay home are called "house girls". They stay at home and they don't work; they help their mothers in taking care of house and younger brothers and sisters - taking them to school, shopping, cleaning, cooking. In the meantime they do hands work and get ready for the marriage. It's quite a big group here.
What about domestic violence?
- It's a bigger issue here than in Holland. And it's more accepted by the women like it's natural. There are women who thinks that man has sometimes reasons to beat their wives if, e.g. they go to friends without permission.
I've done an article with a woman whose husband died five years after they married. He drink himself to death, she even lost two pregnancies because of his violence and she said during the interview - but, I loved him - and I wonder why since she never knew him as a nice man. Her answer was - I belonged with him, my place was with him. So, it wasn't really love but something like "he is my husband and he will always be, and what can I do".
Victims don't confront a lot. And police usually ask - do you really, really want to file a complaint. And many of them who leave their violent husbands go back after some time. It's really hard to get out of a violent relationship.
And with whom children usually stay?
- Children usually stay with mother. Woman can go back to her parents. It's hard to say something in general about Turkey in this context. Southeast of Turkey - girls of 14 are forced to marry 50 years old man, and if they want to get away from the marriage only solution is to commit suicide. But you also have places like Istanbul, where women marries three times and divorce four times. There are very huge differences.
(Published: 12.07.2010. in Wave magazine)
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